Sequel Wars! | Star Wars: A New Hope vs. Empire Strikes Back (featuring filmmaker Matt Brooks)

This week on Films and Fermentation, we’re jumping into a galaxy far, far away for another round of Sequel Wars, as we debate Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope vs. Star Wars: Episode V – The Empire Strikes Back. Is the original film’s perfect hero’s journey enough to hold off one of the most acclaimed sequels of all time, or does Empire’s darker tone and iconic twist give it the edge? We’re breaking down characters, story, world-building, and the moments that defined a generation of movie fans. From trench runs to lightsaber duels, no scene is safe from our completely unbiased (and absolutely biased) opinions. So grab a drink, trust your feelings, and get ready for the ultimate Star Wars showdown. 🍻🌌

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Greetings, humans. I come in peace and with podcasts. Welcome to Pod Nation Media, home of the KJNA podcast, the Undiscovered Entrepreneur, Monster Island Film Vault, Cthulhu Jack presents and films in fermentation. All streaming exclusively on Loku. You're eager to join Pod Nation Media.

SPEAKER_06 2:34

This time around, we decided to break out Sequel Wars for the second time. We did the first Sequel Wars back in October when we did Alien versus Aliens. I don't remember what happened at that episode because I was pretty hammered by the end of it, but I think Alien became out the winner in that debate.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

Alien won, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

Alien. So tonight we're doing Sequel Wars part two. Uh or should we call it Episode Two? Sequel Wars Episode Two, which is Star Wars A New Hope versus Star Wars Empire Strikes Back. Should be an interesting episode. So once again, we are Films of Fermentation, a movie and alcohol podcast, number one beer podcast on Good Pods. I'm Leo. Kevin. I'm Mike. And we are joined tonight by my friend Matt Brooks. Uh, he is a Star Wars mega fan himself, and he is also a filmmaker behind such independent horror films as Always From Darkness, False Face, Shadow Brook, and a little tiny uh two-minute short film that we did on YouTube together called Doppelganger. Check it out. So, Matt, thanks for joining us tonight. Good to be here. Uh it's gonna have we'll have some fun tonight. We're three friends, four friends tonight, who like to talk shit about movies while getting shit-faced. This week on Films and Fermentation, we're jumping into a galaxy far, far away for another round of sequel wars as we debate Star Wars episode four, A New Hope versus Star Wars episode five, The Empire Strikes Back. Is the original film's perfect hero's journey enough to hold off one of the most acclaimed sequels of all time? Or does Empire's darker tone and iconic twist give it an edge? We're breaking down characters, story, world building, and the moments that define a generation of movie fans. From trench runs to lightsaber duels, no scene is safe from our completely unbiased and absolutely biased opinions. So grab a drink, trust your feelings, and get ready for the ultimate Star Wars showdown. Don't forget to drop us an email or filmsofermentation at gmail.com or visit linktree.com slash films of fermentation. Find all of our social media and podcast links. You can watch us on the Pod Nation Media Network on Row to as well as on YouTube and on Rumble. Remember, we are an independent podcast, which means we are listener supported. So please consider joining our Patreon for as little as a dollar a month to receive members-only content and the soft, desperate glow of a distant galaxy. The Rebel Alliance is running low on hope and podcast funds. So for just one dollar a month, you can keep the films and fermentation rebellion alive because somewhere out there, a scrappy crew is trying to review movies and overthrow the empire. You can also buy our shit at teespring.com. You can text us at 904-867-4466. Uh, I like to give a shout-out to Secondary Protocol on uh Instagram, who sent us uh who posted this meme earlier and said I had permission to use it. Star Wars. It's about a talking frog that convinces a son to kill his dad. It's always funny, so I told her I gave her a shout out. Uh what are we drinking tonight, gentlemen? Who would like to go first? Anybody, don't worry about it. I'll go first.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

So I'm continuing back to continuing my blind barrels tastings. And on the fourth sample from uh what is uh 16? Uh the best of the best. This is Midwest Spirits from Midwest Spirits Castle Strength, straight wheat whiskey from Midwest Spirits, Columbus, Ohio. It is 125.2 proof. You work in tomorrow night, though. Yeah, I am. So I only got small glasses. Uh Kev, what do you got going on?

SPEAKER_09 6:31

I was trying to keep in theme, but um, I'm out of beer and we have limited spirits. So this is a Qui-Gon gin and tonic. Uh, but this one is made with an old uh gin I found in the back of the liquor cabinet. This is from Bootleggers New York craft gin. When Megan and I went camping up in the uh cat skills, we got a couple bottles of um bootleggers um spirits. Uh, I think we got this, we got some bourbon, we got some whiskey, we got the cream liqueur, which is still in the freezer. I want to say it's uh like beaver kills or something. I don't know. Very good, and this is the gin I'm using with it tonight. Very fancy.

SPEAKER_06 7:17

Matt, are you imbibing in anything this evening?

SPEAKER_10 7:19

I have well, I have two things that I'm gonna be drinking. I have a two robbers, um vodka and grapefruit, like it's like a pre-made cocktail, and then I also have uh a glass of rose, too. So I'm gonna be going back and forth. Living it up a teacher, teachers have to have to drink.

SPEAKER_06 7:39

Matt is uh Matt and I taught uh at the same high school together for years. I still remember the time you and I got in trouble because we decided to hide in your your room during the fire drill. We didn't want to go outside, so we hid in his room.

SPEAKER_10 7:56

Yeah, I'm at a different school now, but like it's it's a similar kind of nonsense. So, like yeah, same thing, you know.

SPEAKER_06 8:02

Yeah, we're well kevin's a teacher as well, he knows.

SPEAKER_10 8:04

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_06 8:07

So uh I am I was gonna try to do something themed tonight, and I was looking at all these different drinks, and I decided that I was too lazy to mix all that shit together. So I'm just drinking the rest of my uh banana bread beer from Langhorn Brewery that Mike and I were drinking last week. I'm gonna finish off the crowd tonight. In order to try to stay themed though a little bit, I am drinking it out of a red solo cup. So, all right, moving on. Let's play a little song.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

This week in film history with Mike.

SPEAKER_05 9:01

1939, Batman first appears in Detective Comics number 27.

SPEAKER_06 9:07

Yeah, how much that comic is worth now? A lot. You go on to the next one, I'm gonna look that shit up.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

1939 Franklin Eleanor Roosevelt becomes the first president to appear on television when NBC RCA broadcasts the opening of the 1939 New York World's Fair.

SPEAKER_06 9:30

All right, in better news than that, the original Detective Comics 27, if you have it in mint condition, a high grade mint-conditioned uh copy, uh authentic and and and like you know, proven. Uh, it could sell for over a million dollars with one high grade example actually exceeding three million dollars at auction. So check your comic book collections, folks, and yeah. Join our Patreon afterwards.

SPEAKER_05 10:05

Next one. 1941, Citizen King, directed by Orson Wells and starring himself with Joseph Cotton and Dorothy Cummingore premieres at the Palace Theater in New York City. Am I the only one here who's actually watched the entire film?

SPEAKER_10 10:23

I've seen uh you probably I've seen I saw probably most of it. I didn't see the whole thing all at once, so but yeah. It's it's it's I I like that movie. It's it's I think it's a little overrated, but I mean no, I mean like I think there's other one, like I think like some other movies probably would be like like some of people always usually say that's like the best movie ever. I think there's some that would probably be a little bit better than Citizen Kane. I don't know, that's as much.

SPEAKER_06 10:50

Yeah, it's been number one on the American Film Institute list for like ever, and I'm like, I like it. I think it's a masterpiece of filmmaking. It did some things that weren't done before, you know, back uh at that time, but like there are films since then who I that I would say are much better, you know. Yeah, uh Kevin still hasn't gotten through the first half hour, he keeps falling asleep. I'm tired. He's got a he got a baby at home, man. He's he's tired all the time. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_10 11:17

Yeah, that's I remember that very well.

SPEAKER_05 11:21

Uh next one, sir. 1945. Conscience objector Desmond Das saves 75 wounded soldiers in the Battle of Okinawa at Heartbreak Ridge, later depicted in the Oscar winning film Heart uh Hacksaw Ridge.

SPEAKER_06 11:37

Heartbreak Ridge is is Quinn Eastwood. Yeah, Hexlaw Ridge. Yeah, it's the film with uh uh what's his face? Oh, Andrew Garfield, right?

SPEAKER_10 11:46

Andrew Garfield, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:49

Uh next one, sir. 1946, the postman always rings twice, a film based on a novel by Jay James M. Kane, directed by Tay Garnett, and starring Lana Turner and John Garfield is released.

SPEAKER_06 12:05

I know of the film. I've never seen the film.

SPEAKER_10 12:08

Yeah, I never saw that. I never saw that movie.

SPEAKER_06 12:11

I always say like my my knowledge of movies prior to 1950 is very limited. I don't have too many films that I've seen, other than like some of the like the really iconic ones, like going away with the Vision of Oz and shit. Yeah. Uh I think Matt might know a little bit about the next one, probably. Go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

1957 Hammer Film Productions releases its first color horror film, The Curse of Frankenstein, starring Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee.

SPEAKER_10 12:38

Yeah, I love Hammer movies. They're uh yeah, like I I I actually I have a lot of uh I probably have 20 hammer movies on Blu-ray. Um just I really love that studio, uh like the Dracula movies, especially. I like Frankenstein as well.

SPEAKER_06 12:52

Uh but you say it's like something that kind of influenced your own like films a little bit, like especially.

SPEAKER_10 12:58

I mean, just like the vibe of it, I guess. A lot of the the hammer movies kind of have that sort of um like they're very uh like atmospheric, I think. Um there's a really good one that's very underrated called Kiss of the Vampire, and it it almost reminds me a little bit of um what's the Stanley Kubrick? Oh eyes wide shut. A little bit like a vampire version of like there's like a weird masquerade, like a cult kind of thing involved. And it's I don't know, it's pretty funny.

SPEAKER_06 13:24

A lot of anonymous sex, is that what you're trying to say?

SPEAKER_10 13:26

There's no sex, it's more implied than that, but it's it's it's creepy though, the way it's done. The masks in that movie remind me a little bit of the mass in the Kubert movie.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

I was saying that because like your one movie, False Face, is all about masks.

SPEAKER_10 13:40

Oh, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 13:41

That's sort of like your sort of like your your cult vibe, and then you have um always from darkness, which is a vampire film.

SPEAKER_10 13:47

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 13:48

A little bit of influence there.

SPEAKER_10 13:49

Yeah, I love Hammer.

SPEAKER_06 13:52

I like MC Hammer.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

Speaking of movies, I like give me the next one here, Mike. 1997, Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery, starring Mike Myers and Elizabeth Hurley, premieres in the US.

SPEAKER_10 14:10

I like that movie. It's good.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

I like Austin Powers.

SPEAKER_10 14:13

I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_06 14:14

I didn't I didn't see it in the theater. Like many people, I saw it on cable uh because it did not do really well in the theater. The sequel did monster back in the theater. Uh the sequel stars the woman that turned uh that uh stood Kevin up at the prom.

SPEAKER_09 14:30

Oh um Heather Graham. Heather Graham.

SPEAKER_06 14:33

She's such a bad hates her, and we don't know why. And we're trying to she's a bad actress. We I mean, yeah, I like I know there's plenty of bad actresses out there, you don't hate as much as her, and I'm like, Mike and I have is that she was supposed to get a prom with Kevin, turn him down. You hate her more than you hate Nicholas Cage.

SPEAKER_09 14:53

Oh, yeah, well, that's true.

SPEAKER_06 14:54

Oh, you guys want to see a Nick Cage shit. Oh fuck, I gotta send you the video that Jack sent me. CJ sent me a video on on Instagram of a of a cameo appearance that Nick Cage did early in his career, even before Richmond High. Oh it is fucking bad shit. Like it is like Nick Cage. What's that?

SPEAKER_10 15:14

Is he uh he's uh Coppola's nephew, right?

SPEAKER_06 15:17

Yeah, he's coppola's real name is Nick Coppola, yeah. Okay, changed it to Cage because A, he didn't want the nepotism thing following him around, and B because he's nuts. Uh anyway. Uh next one.

SPEAKER_05 15:32

2000 Gladiator, directed by Ridley Scott, starring Russell Crowe and Joaquin Phoenix premieres in Los Angeles, Academy Award, Best Picture in 2001.

SPEAKER_09 15:42

This was a good movie.

SPEAKER_06 15:43

Best of Russell Crowe as well. And I liked it a lot. I really liked um your guy Kev from the field, uh, who plays no old emperor at the beginning.

SPEAKER_09 15:55

The old emperor. Um can't think of his name. Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_10 15:59

Oh, was that uh Richard Harris? Richard Harris.

SPEAKER_06 16:01

I really liked him at the beginning as the old emperor Phoenix built and kills, you know.

SPEAKER_10 16:07

Well, you know, speaking of that, there's um there's a movie called Fall of the Roman Empire that's very similar to Gladiator, like the plot. And Al Guinness actually plays Marcus Aurelius, the Emperor, at the beginning. Oh wow, and you can really tell, like it's very similar to the way he plays Obi-Wan in in Star Wars. He's kind of like a wise stoic.

SPEAKER_06 16:28

Well, that's what Marcus Aurelius, the historical Marcus Aurelius. He wrote he wrote books on you know his about his wisdom and stuff. And yeah, yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_09 16:38

I can tell the Roman soldiers they ride side by side.

SPEAKER_06 16:44

Normally they ride in single pile to hide the numbers. I'm gonna have to check that one out. That sounds good.

SPEAKER_10 16:50

Yeah, it's it's very similar. His performance is very similar to Obi-Wan. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Uh next one, Mike. 2004 Mean Girls Teen Comedy Film release, starring Lindsey Lohan and Rachel McAdams, and written by Tina Faye.

SPEAKER_10 17:07

My wife really likes that one. I think it's a girl film.

SPEAKER_06 17:11

I don't want to say that, like, I'm not saying it's a lot of people. I've seen it. I think it's you can watch it, you can enjoy it. It's funny. I think it's a lot of it. I think it's like yeah, yeah, it's like a film that for a lot of women it's kind of like their seminal flick, you know, and then like some women it's the notebook, some women it's mean girls. Um, I feel like it's just like something like my wife loves some women, it's monster, yeah. Monster.

SPEAKER_09 17:38

Charlie's Theron, really. Charlie Theron, yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 17:43

Yeah, she's a serial killer, that one, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 17:45

Oh, is that the one that's based on the real serial?

SPEAKER_06 17:49

Yeah, it's Eileen Wernos, the serial killer. Yeah, some women, it's Debbie does Dallas. We're not lucky enough to know those women. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

50 Shades of Gray.

SPEAKER_06 18:05

It's a bad literature.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

Uh anyway, next one. 2008 first film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe released Iron Man, directed by John Favreau, starring Robert Danning Jr. as Tody Stark.

SPEAKER_10 18:20

So do you guys think that the um that Marvel's gonna be able to like kind of like it seems like after um after Endgame, they kind of like took a took a dip, you know, as far as like do you think that like the next movie the um is gonna be able to bring that back to like that level of like I don't know. Like I'm just curious what you guys think.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

Like I hope for it. I hope for it, but I think a lot of problems is they kind of an oversaturation of superhero stuff going on right now. They need to kind of calm it down a bit, which I think they have lately because they don't have to be.

SPEAKER_09 18:55

It was like just so much content, and then you weren't sure if you had to watch the shows to understand the movies, and yeah, they were too greedy, they tried to produce too much content with half-ass stories, uh, rather than concentrate on the story, you know.

SPEAKER_06 19:12

I feel like they've had a little increase in quality in the last few years because I like the Fantastic War movie and I liked uh Thunderbolts authority.

SPEAKER_09 19:21

Yeah, and even their I mean, like I've been watching uh Daredevil um Born Again or Born Again. Yeah, it's amazing, it's great.

SPEAKER_10 19:30

Yeah, but like I was gonna say, like this this next uh what uh what's the name of the movie that's coming out at the end of the year? Like this is pretty like pretty much it. Like if they don't if this doesn't land, like Marvel's in trouble, right?

SPEAKER_06 19:44

I mean, like this is cost like so I I read a report last week on our on the show that said um early uh screenings have come back widely positive, and and many people have said that it's the best movie they've done since Infinity War. I don't know how true that is. I hope for it. Um, there are 29 cast members in the main roles, yeah. Comic characters are in it, and the thing I liked about Infinity War and Endgame was that they had stories for every character, they weren't just there as filler, and it's the Russo brothers again doing this film. So I'm hoping you know they can bring a little of that magic back to it. And and like you said, yeah, if it doesn't do well, they're gonna be in trouble. And the problem is a lot of people are not going to theaters nowadays for things, too. It's like very few movies make the bank that they used to make, uh, because not many people go to the theater anymore.

SPEAKER_10 20:39

As long as they don't have Palpatine as the main villain, right? You know, they're gonna bring it up somehow they returned.

SPEAKER_08 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:48

I heard an interview with uh Oscar Isaac recently about that, and like he was like, You hear the exasperation in my voice when I say that line in the film? And and he told the reporter, he's like, It's real exasperation. Even he hated saying that line.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

Uh next one, Mike. 2018 anime series The Simpsons surpasses 635 episodes count of gunsmoke, highest number of episodes of any series on TV.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

It's amazing how nobody in that show is aged.

SPEAKER_10 21:26

Uh I was just watching the um the uh the baseball episode last night because Don Mattingley's in it, and uh now he's the manager of the Phillies, right?

SPEAKER_06 21:35

Is that the one with the uh it was the Springfield Adams?

SPEAKER_05 21:38

The uh yeah I told you to shave those sideburns, Mattingley.

SPEAKER_09 21:45

Oh Steinbrenner.

SPEAKER_06 21:47

One of my favorite uh episodes of The Simpsons was they did one um back when uh the VH1 behind the music things were real popular, they did one called Behind the Laughter, and it was supposed to be like what they were like in real life. Outside of filming the show, and you find out that Lisa and Bart are still the same age because Homer forces them to take pills to keep them from growing. Yeah, I remember that. It's like looks like really dark shit that happens at the behind the scenes. It was funny.

SPEAKER_05 22:14

Uh next one, Mike. 2018 superhero film Avengers Infinity War sets new record for opening weekend, earning 250 million in the US, 630 million worldwide.

SPEAKER_06 22:28

Now that's the number they're hoping to surpass. So like that's that's the bar right now. Yeah. Uh well, no, I'm sorry. The bar is the next one. Holy fuck.

SPEAKER_10 22:39

Yeah, the endgame, right?

SPEAKER_05 22:41

Yeah. Uh 2019 Disney Disney says Phil Marvel film Avengers Endgame earns an estimated 1.2 billion worldwide, becoming the first film to make more than 1 billion on opening.

SPEAKER_10 22:58

Man, that was so crazy. I mean, that was only six six years, what, seven years ago? I mean, like, it wasn't that long ago.

SPEAKER_06 23:04

That was like I mean, one year after each other, like they're they were boom, boom, and you know, they both made a ton of ton of cash. Did you see them in the theater, Matt?

SPEAKER_10 23:16

No, I didn't see them in the theater, no.

SPEAKER_06 23:17

Okay, yeah, I like telling the story. I saw Infinity War in the theater uh by myself because I wanted to see it before it got spoiled for me. And uh I was sitting next to this kid, like probably in like his 20s or something, and when Spider-Man dusted, he started crying and and asked me if Spider-Man was gonna come back. I was like, I don't know, man. I don't know.

SPEAKER_10 23:40

You know what's funny? I saw the the this is uh the uh remember the Wolverine Origins one like where that was really bad. I remember seeing that in the I remember I took off from school that day to go see that movie, and I remember the fire alarm was pulled, and everybody thought that like I pulled it or something.

SPEAKER_06 24:02

Kevin and I saw Wolverine Origins in the theater uh opening weekend, and when he hit one scene, he like because he screams at the camera so much in that movie, he does the claw thing and like screams up in the sky. Yeah, it's like five. He did it like the sixth time, and the fucking theater started laughing, like it was like giant reaction. That's great, man. Uh no, the other one, uh Infinity War. There was these two uh two ladies sitting down a row for me, two little two black ladies sitting down uh down a row for me, and when uh Black Panther dusted, one of them went, God damn it, we just got him. I love theater reactions, it's the best.

SPEAKER_08 24:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

Uh and the last one you got, Mike. 2019 TV series, Game of Thrones, the long night episode debuts with the longest battle ever seen, nearly 80 minutes, surpassing the Lord of the Rings, Battle Helms Deep, 44 minutes.

SPEAKER_06 25:02

It was an intense episode because it was really long, and there were a lot of characters, but you weren't sure if they were gonna live or die during that episode. And I would probably I don't know about you guys, but I think it's the last really good episode they had because the last three episodes were shitting the bed.

SPEAKER_10 25:17

Yeah, it's but it's I'm I'm actually a really big Game of Thrones fan. Like, I read all the books, like I I love Game of Thrones, and like they just rushed that whole like the last that's really frustrating to me because like it was rushed. I mean, that's the problem. Like, it was just there's no way they sick was it like six episodes?

SPEAKER_06 25:35

I think it was yeah, like most of the seasons were ten episodes.

SPEAKER_10 25:39

Yeah, that is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 25:40

I mean, like, there's no way they could I mean things just happen too fast, like they rushed things, they they switched character motivations without explanation. Uh yeah, um and then you have this build-up to them facing the White Walkers for for seven seasons, yeah. And then and then it just like in one night it's over.

SPEAKER_10 25:59

I yeah, I know that's really well. I think the the from what I from what I read, like the um you know, the the showrunners basically like wanted to move on to Star Wars, right? Didn't they get a Star Wars deal? Yeah, and I think that fell through rushed the the end of it, and then they didn't get it. I mean like their movies never were made, right?

SPEAKER_06 26:19

No, no, they had their deal fell through with with uh Lucasfilm and Disney and all that. So yeah, I don't know, man. Yeah, oh well. Uh we have no beer news tonight and no movie updates for this evening, so we're gonna move on to some must-try craft brew from Mike.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

NS and Gun Brewing Company, Oak Age Beer, 6.6 ABV. The Scottish Brew stands out for blending traditional brewing with techniques more commonly associated with whiskey maturation, launching in 2003 in Edinburgh. Sorry, my phone. In Edinburgh, yeah, yeah, no. It helped revive interest in wood-aged beers, a practice historically linked more to spirits and wine. The beer is crafted using golden promise pale malt along with pale and crystal malts. And it's hopped with Phoenix variety. It makes it distinctive. What makes it distinctive is its oak aging, which imparts complex flavors rarely found in standard ales. Visually, it pours a rich amber color with a dense, long-lasting foam head and fine champagne-like carbonation. The aroma is layered. Smoky oak sits alongside sweet malt, vanilla, and a touch of tart hops. On the palate, you get pronounced smoky malt flavors, followed by or a bright orange fruit notes and earthy hop resins. The finish lingers as a bitterness bittersweet blend with a subtle hint of resin reminiscence of cognac. Likely a result from the oak aging process. Originally sold only in bottles, a cast condition conditioned version has occasionally appeared in at festivals hosted by the campaign for Real Ale. The beer quickly gained recognition, winning multiple gold medals and the Supreme Champion title at the International Beer Competition in 2004, along with the Safeway Consumer Beer of the Year Award. Overall, it's a pioneering example of how brewing and barrel aging traditions can intersect to create something genuinely distinctive.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Everybody got that.

SPEAKER_06 29:05

All right, we're gonna take a uh quick little break here and we'll be back with our main segment. All right, okay, we're moving on to our main segment tonight. This is Sequel Wars Part 2. Tonight we're doing the original Star Wars A New Hope versus the sequel, The Empire Strikes Back. We're gonna discuss some things about it and see which one we consider the better of the two films. This segment is brought to you by our new sponsor.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

In producing the X Fighter bed, the only adult bed that lets you sleep like a hero. Slip on the all-black Starfighter helmet with built-in sleep apnea hopes. And keep midnight next closed in the underbed mini fridge.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

Hey, I need that bit if I just put some beer in one, obviously.

SPEAKER_06 29:48

$4.99 is not a bad price for that beta. It even comes with a built-in uh uh sleep apnea machine. So anyway, yeah, so tonight we're gonna talk about uh episode four versus episode five. We're only sticking to those two movies. We are not talking about the other films because that'll have to be a fucking six-episode arc. Get through all that. So we're only talking about the first two films, uh, and trying to decide for ourselves which one is the better of the two. Now, right off the bat, Empire is my favorite film of all the Star Wars films. Necessarily mean it's the best one, but I like it the best. I know we all have our own personal faves and stuff, so Matt, what's your favorite of all the films?

SPEAKER_10 30:35

Oh, uh yeah, definitely. I think Empire would be my favorite as well. I mean, uh, yeah, I I love that movie. Like, um, I mean, there's so many things about it that I really enjoy. Like, I uh uh I just think that's it's one of it's one of my favorite movies of all time, really.

SPEAKER_06 30:50

I always think of the the line in Clerks where he's like, Do you like what do you like better? Empire, Jedi, and he's like Empire, and he's like blasphemy. And then Dante's like, Empire had the better ending. Luke gets his hand cut off, on gets frozen, take away. It ends on such a down note. That's what life is a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets.

SPEAKER_10 31:12

I think so. Like Empire reminds me kind of like a two towers, like because I really love two towers as well, as far as the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It's like that middle movie and or middle book or whatever, you know. Like, that's I think for both I think that's the strongest story uh if both Lord of the Rings and and the original trilogy.

SPEAKER_09 31:29

Yeah, it's the bridge that connects them, you know.

SPEAKER_06 31:33

It's ice, I mean, I mean we'll get into it, but it like part of it I think has to do with the fact that um Lucas didn't direct this one. You know, you had a director with a little bit of a different vision and tone, even though it was Lucas's script. Uh, it was a different director, and Carrie Fisher did the uh the ghost writing on the dialogue for the film, which is why the dialogue is so much better. Um, but yeah, I mean we'll get into it. I don't want to be too biased right off the beginning. We didn't even get to a discussion yet. Mike's favorite is um uh Rise of Skywalker. No, it's not. No, no, no, no, no. He just thinks he thinks somehow Palpatine Return is one of the greatest lines of dialogue in the history of the film.

SPEAKER_07 32:18

Unlimited no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 32:26

I'm a big I'm a big new hope fan.

SPEAKER_06 32:30

I mean, you can make the argument that there wouldn't be an empire without new hope. True. Then you could also make the argument that there won't be an aliens without aliens, so it's like you can't always make that argument. No, that's not the no argument. What are you gonna say, Kevin? You're gonna say something.

SPEAKER_09 32:45

I was just going to say that you you could argue that there wouldn't be a new hope without Rogue One. You don't get the plans if there's no Rogue One.

SPEAKER_06 32:52

There wouldn't be a Rogue One without episode one, two, and three. Very true. There might not be an episode three without the clone wars and rebels. And then there might not be even be an episode one if it wasn't for the acolyte.

SPEAKER_10 33:10

I never actually watched the acolytes. Didn't miss much. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_06 33:15

Uh uh, so let's start right there then. Let's talk about the difference between George Lucas and Irvin Kirshner in uh framing uh the tone of the film. Uh New Hope has that mythic uh hero's journey energy going for it, obviously. And and Lucas has always talked about like his influences are old myths and heroes journey and and things like that nature, and then Empire which had a much darker introspective tone to it.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

Right. And with you know, with New Hope, you also gotta look at it as they they made it so it had an ending because they didn't know if they were gonna get a second one.

SPEAKER_06 33:54

Yeah. Yeah, kind of yeah, it does end on like a very like positive. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

Because you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

I mean, they left it open with Vader getting shot out there in the space, but not that open because they put a not the sequel should have started with uh uh Chewbacca standing before the tribunal and arguing that he should have gotten a medal too. Yeah, but don't worry, and Mike's favorite film, Rise of Skywalker, he gets the medal after I think I I think I got crushed by a moon. He got crushed by a moon in the books that don't count anymore. One of the best fucking books I read. I'm like, god damn it, why could you use that for the goddamn movie? Um, anyway, uh yeah, I was I was telling Mike uh earlier. I watched New Hope Tuesday night and I watched Empire last night. And both nights my wife came home from work like midway through the film, and she was she goes, let me get a show prep. I was like, Yeah, you know, show prep. Not that I haven't seen the movies a million times, but I just felt the need to watch it again. Kev, I saw you highlighting Irving Kirshner's name. Were you looking up his IMDB or something like that?

SPEAKER_09 35:09

I am, I am. I wanted a little backstory on him. I know so much about George Lucas, I just needed to know more. Um, he directed Robocop 2, he directed a couple episodes of Sequest, which was one of my favorite shows growing up. Um, aside from that, uh Never Say Never Again, which I'm gonna assume is James Bond because it's you know confusing. We make a bunch of um uh but but the rest of it, uh you know, that's not notable, really.

SPEAKER_06 35:42

I remember the Robocop 2 one made me laugh when I when you said that because I remember that one. Um as a cinematographer as well.

SPEAKER_09 35:53

Yeah, I was just wondering why he was chosen for Empire, that's all.

SPEAKER_06 36:00

I mean I don't know how far back his career goes. Um so I don't know how so it looks like his first few movies were in the 60s. Uh yeah, and then he got Empire Strikes Back was like the first major film he got. Um he probably was just somebody that Lucas was familiar with as a as a director or something like that, and you know, probably came cheap too.

SPEAKER_09 36:28

He's a local boy who's from Philly, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 36:30

Oh, is he? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_06 36:32

Yeah, so but I mean I thought it was it worked out because it is many people consider it the best film, you know. Uh I if you want to say New Hope is number one versus Empire, I'm not gonna argue with you because both movies to me are you know, if without those, you don't have anything else.

SPEAKER_05 36:51

It's also one of those, you know, kind of like when we had with Alien versus Alien, it's two different types of movies.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

Yeah. I mean that that leads into the second question here, the tonal shift. The first movie is space fantasy. Uh it's like sword and sorcery in space, basically. It's that like Lord of the Rings, right? Like Lord of the Rings in Space. Whereas the second film is more of a dark character-driven story, or Game of Thrones, I think for Game of Thrones, yeah, like kind of building the arc of the characters a little bit more. So, yeah, like Alien versus Aliens. It's a the tonal shift worked with those films because you had one was a haunted house in space and the other one was an action film, right? And this one you start out with something that's sort of like swashbuckling uh space opera, and then turn it into something that's a little more like Shakespeare on on a you know, moon in the trock.

SPEAKER_09 37:43

A little more dramatic, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:46

Um so which film uses the setting better as a character? That'd be like talking about like the uh this the planets you visit in the films.

SPEAKER_05 38:03

Um I mean I think they both do pretty well with both that.

SPEAKER_09 38:12

Um the desert in the first one, and then you have the ice planet, and then you have yeah, Cloud City, and then on the third one you're back on the desert, and you have um, you know, Endor or the moon of Endor.

SPEAKER_06 38:27

One of the things I always loved about Star Wars is it's very well known for planets that only have one ecosystem on the giant planet. Off is an ice planet, Tatooine is a giant desert. Tatooine is basically Arrakis without the sandworms, yeah. And then uh they have the sarlac. They have the sarlac, yeah. Yeah, that's right. They do have that, they do have a giant worm.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

Uh and then you have um swamp uh she's out of rainforest.

SPEAKER_06 38:56

Yeah, uh, and then you have Dagobad swamp. Yeah, you just have one. Yeah, Endor is the arboreal world. It's like, yeah, everything's just everything's yeah.

SPEAKER_10 39:09

But I mean, like, see the rest of the world, but maybe, maybe, maybe theoretically, there's other parts of the planet you just never see. I don't know if it goes.

SPEAKER_06 39:17

And we're only we're only on the western hemisphere of each other. Yeah, maybe so. I mean, but like thinking about it from a story standpoint, like Tatooine, I think in the first film does a really good job of setting up Luke's wistfulness to to want to leave and and see more things. Yeah, and I think you you get a lot of that in that scene where he's like standing by himself, retrospective, looking at the two moon, their two sons in the distance. And that's a great shot. That's a great scene.

SPEAKER_09 39:48

And then it's revisited.

SPEAKER_06 39:49

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_09 39:51

Then it's revisited in Return of the Jedi, where they're you know being track the transported to the Sarlac pit, and um hands like I can only see like a light blur, and he goes, you know, there's nothing to see here. I grew up here, you know. And hands like, Well, you're right here, you know.

SPEAKER_06 40:07

Well yeah. I I say like what you want about George Lucas's storytelling skills and his dialogue writing and all, he does have a good vision, and he has a great eye. And and part of it, Sam, part of it's a cinematographer, too. But it it the the filming of Star Wars is is or at least Star Wars and Empire, you can't you can't deny is is amazing. Now, I have the Death Star down here is another place too, because like you you have another location in the film, it just happens to be on the Death Star.

SPEAKER_05 40:39

Yes, because you know, all empires have nothing but you know places with you know all mechanical with huge pits that go nowhere.

SPEAKER_06 40:49

Tiny exhaust vents that lead right to the fucking reactor core with a monster in the in the garbage, too. So no, that was on the uh that was on the Star Destroyer, wasn't it? Or is that Death Star. That's right. I was in the Death Star. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

Shut them all down.

SPEAKER_06 41:11

Curse my middle body. Oh, we forgot the cloud city vespin at the planet's just sky.

SPEAKER_09 41:18

I will say that I'm not a huge fan of all the you know, special edition things that Lucas changed in '97. Um that was one that I actually liked. All the improvements they made to Cloud City to Cloud City, you know. Open up it it flushed it out. Yeah, it opened it up, it made it look a little more, you know, um, enjoyable.

SPEAKER_06 41:42

Plus, you really want that ice cream maker. I do, I really do. You know the ice cream maker, Matt?

SPEAKER_10 41:49

What from from Cloud City?

SPEAKER_06 41:51

So there's a scene when when they're evacuating, a guy comes running by and he's carrying a big container, and it looks like the old ice cream maker machines.

SPEAKER_10 42:01

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_06 42:03

They actually make a callback too that in the first season of Mandalorian, uh, the child is inside a container that's designed to look like ice cream container.

SPEAKER_10 42:13

Okay, yeah, I have to look for that next time.

SPEAKER_06 42:15

Yeah, you see the guy just goes, he's running by like it's the most surprised possession he owns, like he's holding on to it for dear luck.

SPEAKER_05 42:21

You can actually buy those at Disney now. You can go buy the ice cream makers, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:27

Does it actually make ice cream?

SPEAKER_09 42:29

He was holding on to it because it made blue mint chocolate chip. Blue cow milk.

SPEAKER_06 42:36

Yeah. Um which film shows Luke's stronger journey? Like, which is the better story arc? Like you think like the first movie, the first movie is hit. Well, speaking of the first two films, uh the first movie is the hero's call, you know, the call to action, uh leaving your comfortable place and all that stuff, finding a bigger world out there. Whereas the second film is the student learning the truth about you know, the the the truth about how failing is sometimes a good thing. And the darker side of things.

SPEAKER_10 43:15

I I kind of would I as far as that question of the loose journey, I kind of like New Hope better than Empire. Um just because he comes he basically um you know he basically he's living on a farm and he really by the end of the movie he's a he's a hero. So I mean I I kind of like that a little bit better. I mean, I like I mean they're both good, but if I had to choose, I probably would choose you know new hope over that over MIP.

SPEAKER_06 43:42

As as an English teacher yourself, like I used to be. We love the hero's journey stories anyway. So this is a real like Hercules story. It's it's uh it's a Harry Potter, it's a catnus everding, it's all like those leaving your comfortable. Place finding it to the world.

SPEAKER_08 44:02

From the hobbit.

SPEAKER_06 44:03

They all have the mentor getting killed, too, right? Obi-Wan gets killed. Gandalf dies. Yeah. They all come back as ghosts later. Um, I kind of agree too. Like, I love I like the hero's journey. I like I love the introduction of the characters in the first film. Uh, having watched it with a little bit more critical eye the other night. Mike always makes has this complaint about the uh the sequel trilogy that they try to force the trio of Ray, Finn, and Poe on you, but it's not justified because they really didn't give them a chance to grow and become that close unit that you expect them to be. Whereas in Star Wars, New Hope, like Han Luke and Leia and Obi-Wan, like they all have moments to uh to grow and become closer, and then by the time Empire rolls around, you know they've been working together for a few years now before the start of that film, and if you feel it in their interactions. Unfortunately, they didn't know they were brother and sister.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

That's a whole nother story.

SPEAKER_06 45:19

Which you think is the better of the two story arcs?

SPEAKER_09 45:22

Uh Empire. I think it's Empire because he he's there's too much there's a lot of conflict that he has to overcome, you know. It's conflict between him and Vader, it's conflict between him and Yoda, even Yoda's you know, um trying to convince him he has to give up his friend so that he can defeat the empire and he's not willing to make that sacrifice yet, you know. Um, but still holding on to I want to be a Jedi like my father.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

So yeah, I just I just want to be crispy. Yeah, well, I do think that with an empire they do give you that now staple that skywalkers are whiny bitches.

SPEAKER_06 46:10

He is pretty whiny, he's definitely whiny in New Hoop.

SPEAKER_05 46:14

Yeah, but he's whiny.

SPEAKER_06 46:15

I'm not such a bad pilot myself.

SPEAKER_05 46:17

He's he's whiny, but he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Later on, he knows what he's talking about, but he's just whiny bitching about it now.

SPEAKER_06 46:26

I always think of this scene at the end of New Hope where they're talking about uh the size of the exhaust port. He's like, uh, oh yeah, I I used to bullseye womp rats in my T16 at home, they're no bigger than two meters. And they spoofed that in Family Guy Star Wars episode where he he says that same line, and then the guy pulls them aside. He's like, dude, you have to meet you look like an asshole in front of everybody.

SPEAKER_10 46:52

Did you guys hear about that um Mark Hamill got into a bad car accident between and Empire, and he looks that's why it looks different. Have you heard that?

SPEAKER_05 47:02

He he had a yeah, go ahead, Mike. We're gonna say that that's actually true. Some of the actual parts after the the fill with the filming of after the the ice monster hit him, where he was all cut up. That's actually him being cut up from the accident, yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 47:18

So yeah, like what I heard was he was in a bad accident and had to have uh like reconstruction surgery on his face. Oh, okay. And I think the scene with the Wampa on Haw was added later to make an excuse for why his face was and the little known trivia is he was in the car with the Wampa from Haw.

SPEAKER_09 47:42

And the Wampa was trying to protect him. He was holding his paw out in front of his face.

SPEAKER_06 47:56

That is our most used drop, I believe. Uh so best foil Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda, the mentor of destiny versus the mentor of discipline. I have to say this, watching Empire the other night and watching it with the more critical eye, Yoda's kind of a dick. Yoda is a dick. A little bit of a dick to Luke in that movie.

SPEAKER_09 48:22

I mean, I love Yoda. Yoda likes to fuck around with him. He starts off with, I'm gonna invade your camp. I'm not gonna tell you who I am, I'm gonna eat your hot dogs and uh play with your land.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

That part I like because I think it's entertaining, and I like the fact that he's trying to like kind of test Luke a little bit and see what he's like. I'm gonna like more like tell him who the fuck he was, because R2 should know already. Yeah, right. And then like that's where the holes start to get larger in Lucas's storytelling. Um, what was I gonna say? But like later when they're in his house and he finally like finds it, figures out who he is, and then he's kind of like too old to train you all. Like you know, he just like kind of like gaslights him the whole time. I do like the end of that scene where he's like, I'm not scared, and he goes, You will be. What the fuck is up with that, Yoda Jesus? I don't remember you saying that to the young young's in class. I'm not scared, Mass Yoda. I'll make you shit your pants, kid. Your pants you will. There's also something to be said for Obi-Wan being a major character in all the films, like the original films and the prequel films. Yeah, even being played by two different actors, it's he's still such an iconic character. I think it's funny that a lot of people, for a lot of people now, Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Oh, yeah. Because they grew up with the prequel films. Or Jesus, because you know they face Jesus. Wait, there's a lot of shit, a lot of podcasts doing Star Wars shit this week, obviously, because of Star Wars Day. Of course. And I was listening to one the other day and I heard somebody refer to Anakin Skywalker as Middle Chlorine Jesus, and now I can't get it out of my head. It's just Middle Chlorine Jesus.

SPEAKER_09 50:16

But I have to say, I think uh Yoan McGregor makes uh the argument for more people associating him with Obi-Wan Kenobi is it's stronger because he's he's invested more in the character. He's creating you know what I'm saying? Like he he gives the character his background, his origin, uh the reasons for feeling how he feels. He's had more opportunities to play him as a living being than a spirit, you know. Even I like the Obi-Wan series that they that they produced. I thought that was really good.

SPEAKER_06 50:49

So I I think too, I agree. Like you and McGregor's had more time to flesh the character out. Oh but he's also did a really good job of of playing the legacy of Alec Guinness, too. Like it wasn't too far off of the Alec Guinness performance. Yeah, yeah. Without Alec Guinness, you wouldn't have Hellodia and knew that.

SPEAKER_09 51:07

True. I mean, but I mean, take into consideration Alec Guinness didn't care for the character. It was a paycheck for him, you know. He could care less about how the character felt.

SPEAKER_06 51:17

It shows you how how good of an actor he is that he took it as a paycheck and still got an Oscar nomination for it. He didn't know what the hell he was talking about at the time.

SPEAKER_10 51:28

Uh that's why I like it he's very similar to the Emperor Marcus Aurelius. Like, that's I think that's pretty much how he played it. Like, just the way he acts. Like, it's it's it like he's kind of like from a you know, uh see this is the thing I like about Alec Guinness compared to like what they did with uh Luke in the uh sequel trilogy. They made him like really bitter and kind of like um you know, not you know, like kind of checked out. Alec Guinness was more like, yeah, he was kind of bitter, but like he wasn't like he didn't give up hope, you know what I mean? Like he still had something to cling to. And I don't know, I I think that's why I liked his performance. It was kind of like he was he was kind of like sad about what happened, but he was still invested in the future and still wanted to try to turn things around. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 52:15

So yeah, I'm not trying to talk about the actor performances, I mean the characters themselves, Obi-Wan through versus Yoda, but uh I should bring up I I was looking up like casting West What Ifs earlier for different characters, and the actor that Lucas originally wanted for Obi-Wan Kenobi is uh uh Toshira Mfune, who was an actor famous for Akira Kurosawa films. Um, he did a lot of Kira Kurosawa films, mostly samurai characters because Obi-Wan was supposed to be sort of like a samurai.

SPEAKER_10 52:48

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_06 52:48

And um Toshihira Mufuni turned it down because he was tired of playing samurai characters. And for I don't know why, but Alec Guinness was the next choice because you know, when I think I can't get the Japanese actor I want, let me get Alec Guinness.

SPEAKER_09 53:03

Well, he did that performance in the bridge over the uh River Kwai.

SPEAKER_06 53:08

So there is a there's a uh uh Akira Kurosawa film uh um that Star Wars is heavily based on. Um I'm trying to think of the title of it. I think it's called like The Hidden Wall or something like that. And um, I watched it not too long ago. Uh oh, the Hidden Fortress is the name of the film. It is Star Wars. It's a young man who leaves the comfort of his home, is guided by an old uh prophetic character, meets this headstrong, strong woman character who's like totally on her own and has her own agency in the film, and they're fighting this evil empire, and I'm like fucking Star Wars and future things. Like, that's what it was. It was incredible, and that's why he wanted that actor.

SPEAKER_10 53:55

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 53:56

Um, I think the studio was like, We need a name in this film, yeah. And at the time, Alec Guinness was the biggest name they had. More than Harrison Ford or Mark Allen, anyone who was. I'm an Obi-Wan guy. I don't know. I love Yoda, I do love Yoda, but I I like Obi-Wan and the latter for what you said, Kev, like because of how fleshed out the character was.

SPEAKER_09 54:22

I also wonder sometimes if um if Yoda had been the one to lead the attack on the uh on the chancellor, on the on the uh Emperor instead of Mace Window. And then Mace Windu ended up being the one who had to go to Dagobah to hide, and then Luke came under Mace Window. Like, how would that have played out?

SPEAKER_06 54:47

Uh motherfucker like you get this big eating shit like this. I don't think the emperor would have made it through, go to it would have been a different story. Yeah, I think it would have ended there. Say what? One more time, say one again, motherfucker. Judge me by my size, do you? Look at the size of my dick, motherfucker.

SPEAKER_05 55:13

Why there's so many motherfucking snakes in this they have two?

SPEAKER_06 55:21

See that lightsaber over there? Which lightsaber? The one that says bad motherfucker on it. They actually put that on his lightsaber. It is on the lightsaber, it says bad motherfucker on it. Not in the one they sell on Disney, but the one in the movie. That's great, man. I would love that. That'd be a great one. That'd be they should do like Star Wars what it is. What if Ace Window was the one who screamed Luke on Dangova? Motherfucker, what you do to my home? Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

That's why you motherfucker failed.

SPEAKER_06 56:01

Luminous beings are we, not this fucking crude meta.

SPEAKER_05 56:10

Oh, you can't get your motherfucking ship out.

SPEAKER_06 56:18

Oh my god. Yoda 2517 says that's the right guy. It's been set on all sides. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 56:32

Uh let's move on. That boy is our last hope. Motherfucker, please. We got another one.

SPEAKER_10 56:39

He has to fight Zed with a lightsaber.

SPEAKER_06 56:46

Uh which film feel so this was a question that I kind of brought back from Alien, the Alien versus Aliens debate was which film felt more lived in? Um, and in that debate we went with Alien because the original film was about space truckers basically. And it felt like a very dirty, sweaty, lived-in environment. It smelled like cigarettes and BO. And um what do you would you say about Star Wars then? Which one feels like more lived? Lived in.

SPEAKER_05 57:14

I would say uh New Hope because you know, just with you know uh the farming of Dega of uh Tatooine, then you go to the the the spaceports, which is more dingy and the bars. Um when you go to when you when you have um Empire, the real the only thing that feels more would be lived in would be um Cloud City, but in the original take, it felt very closed off and isolated because you didn't see a lot of people there, which I would think you would see a bigger city.

SPEAKER_06 57:55

I kind of agree. I think New Hope because and I'll say for New Hope has two major contrasts because you're on Tatooine that's dusty and dirty, and you know, there's sand everywhere.

SPEAKER_07 58:07

Sand everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 58:12

And and and you have like you know, the sand people and the jawas, and you have this like really rich like environment there at the bar, like you said, with all the different uh aliens in it, and then you go to the Death Star where everything is like surgically clean, right? You know, and and and metallic and very cold and and very like you know, uh uh isolated. And I feel like it's a cool contrast, those two things really stick out. Um in Empire, I feel like the different environments are more like special settings than they so much are, you know, dependent on the characters themselves.

SPEAKER_05 58:50

Right.

SPEAKER_09 58:52

I see. I don't think it was I wasn't taking that question from a literal setting, lived in home kind of thing. I was looking at like the characters, what felt a little more believable in terms of like uh an expand opening up, opening up the universe where you know we would have been introduced to Boba Fett if the original Java scene had been able to go in, or um getting to know Lando a little bit more, you know, and wanting to know the relationship between him and Han because it's only kind of hinted at and suggested. Um yeah, introduct the introduction of Yoda, you know, and things like that.

SPEAKER_06 59:36

So, I mean, I would have gone with Empire on that one, but only from a character plot point of view, not from a setting, not look from the actual I love the scene in Empire where where Lando says to Leia, you look beautiful, you truly do belong with us among the clouds. And I keep waiting for him to break out of a bottle of Call 45. I get what you're saying, though. You're looking more at it as like uh um how the setting kind of tells the story.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:07

Yeah, more character development kind of makes it feel a little more relatable.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:12

Which one then would you go with and what is the more believable of the two, then?

SPEAKER_09 1:00:17

Empire. There's no way a farm boy from Tatooine could hit an exhaust port that's only two meters wide.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:27

He didn't use the bullseye womp rats in a C16 by much bigger than two meters.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:34

But it's more believable. It's more believable to have constant issues with a hyperdrive unit on a bucket of bolts.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:48

Here's a subtle line in Empire that like I I hear, I mean I've heard it plenty of times, but like last night for whatever reason when I was watching it, it made me laugh a little bit more. Was as they are hiding on the back of the uh the Star Destroyer and they float away with the trash uh to escape and all that, like kind of camouflage themselves. He says something along the lines of you know, we we uh we we float, you know, they they have to release the garbage before they go into hyperspace and we just float away with them. And Leia goes, with the rest of the trash.

SPEAKER_10 1:01:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember the that's a good thing. Harry Fisher probably wrote that, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:24

Yeah, he should have turned and been like, What the fuck do you say, bitch about my shit? You have your moments, you have your moments, like Jesus, man.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:34

A real toxic relationship, they had no, that's why it didn't work out in the new uh Worst Awakens.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:43

I thought it was because uh their son turned into an evil that fell apart.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:50

I mean, it was their fighting that drove him to the dark side, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:54

Talk about fun theater reactions when Kylo Wren kills uh uh Han Solo. Uh I went and saw Force Awakens by myself too when it opened because again I didn't want to get ruined for me. And I cried, I sobbed so much when Han Solo died that the guy in the seat near me got up and moved. Han Solo was my favorite character. Uh do the practical effects and world building still hold up and which film pushes them further?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:29

I would think that the practical effects and um New Hope with the just the the bat the the um the Death Star battle scene um was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:45

Yeah, they're trying to run the whole space battle.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:49

You don't have as much practical effects as that in Empire. Um but there are some good especially some good um practical effects uh with the uh lightsaber scene, the duel between Vader and Lou. So it's it's like two different I mean, both of them have very good practical effects, so it's hard to say which one was better.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:15

What would you say is the best practical effect from each of the movies?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:20

In uh New Hope, I would say it's the bar scene where you have all the different aliens. Because I mean, it was no CGI, that was all people in costumes and and puppetry, and and not talking about special editions where there were CGI characters added in, yeah, you know, like the original versions of the film. I think that is the best scene in the original film because that's like the first time anybody really saw something like that on screen. Uh Empire. No, I mean that's a good one too.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:49

Um, and like Mike said, the trench run at the end is a great example of the um you know, like in Empire where uh Han is uh frozen in you know in carbonite. Like that that whole sequence is really cool too. Like I thought, like just uh you know, when he when he comes out as a big slab.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:07

Yeah, and yeah, and then you get C3's uh totally sensitive line. Oh, he should be he should be well preserved if he survived the process. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:19

Yeah. But he ends up looking like meatloaf in Rocky Horror Picture Show. Yeah, where he's the table.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:24

I'm gonna look the model I have and see what I got on the spot.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:29

But in Empire, you'd say it'd have to be Yoda, just the whole puppeteering of of Yoda throughout the throughout Dangaba.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:36

I was gonna say that too, yeah, because the Yoda, the Yoda puppet was so I think there's stories of Irving Kirshner talking to the puppet and giving it directions, and Frank Oz being like under the stage going, I'm down here. Because the puppet was so realistic. I definitely think Leoda is probably the best effect from Empire as far as practical effects go. Although I really do like the Hof battle with the uh the Imperial Walkers and all that. Yeah, even a Wampa, I think, is a really cool effect. You know what's a cool effect too? An Empire, I think it's kind of like goes under radar a little bit as the end when Luke gets the new hand. Oh and the robot is testing the little gears out and stuff. Like that's a pretty cool effect. Yeah, kind of like uh Cameron stole that a little bit for Terminator. Um, I mean, we always talk about how much we love practical effects on this show anyway. It's not a secret that we you know, we have a place in our heart for that stuff. Uh, best villain presence Vader as the enforcer in New Hope, or Vader as the central figure in Empire?

SPEAKER_09 1:05:49

Vader was more badass in Empire.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:52

You know, I mean he he was just killing admirals left and right. That's one of my favorite running tags in the game.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:01

Don't disappoint me, Admiral. He's given battlefield promotions the entire friggin' movie. I love it. It's like such a cool running gag. Um, but yeah, I yeah, I it's hard to he has such an iconic introduction in New Hoop.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:22

Yeah, when it comes to the game.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:27

It's like such an iconic, you know, moment in film. It's hard to say.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:34

I I think like in Empire, I I kind of like his uh his role there better because like it introduces really the emp the emperor. And I mean obviously you don't see him in person, but like you get the idea like Vader's a little more complex, like he's trying, you know, when he's communicating the emperor, you realize like, all right, he's not really on top, he working for somebody else, and he's he was working for uh somebody else in the in the new hope because he was oh yeah, but you just don't you don't see him but like you don't you don't see him answer to the emperor, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:07

No, but he was as he was he was answering to Tarkin.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:10

Yeah, and that's what's like in New Hope, he was more like the second in command and the Death Star Tarkin was the one in charge.

SPEAKER_10 1:07:17

Tarkin I think was a bigger villain than personal, yeah. Like he he answered to Tarkin, you're right, but like obviously the Emperor is like you know a level above yeah, but I mean I like Empire more too just because of the the I Am Your Father reveal.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:43

You know, I mean such a uh an important moment in the series. It's hard to argue that's not, you know. Yeah. Uh which brings us to the next one here. Which reveal lands harder? Lose the force Luke in the trench run in the first movie, or I am your father? I am definitely. I think I I really pick I Am Your Father. I had to I had to put a question in there just to get it in there, but it's like I think I am your father is just so we were talking about the Simpsons earlier. That's another fun Simpsons episode where Marge and Homer on their first date together, and he walks out of the theater and there's a whole line of people waiting to go in, and he's like, Boy, who would have thought Vader was Luke's father? Yeah, that's an easy question. Uh, which scene is what's the I have like examples here, but you can pick any scene you want. What is the most iconic scene in each of the two films? No, I think in the first one a lot you might want to say the trench run, but I really think Vader's introduction at the beginning of the movie is so amazing.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:52

Not Han shooting first.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:56

I mean, if you're talking about the re-edit, you know, he does that weird janky move to the left when Greedo shoots it.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:06

That's probably the argument Luke is having with his uncle Owen and his aunt brew at the table. That's your iconic scene. That's the iconic scene because relatable. Everybody argues with their parental units, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:17

That's the that's the blue milk scene. That's why it's iconic.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:20

Especially uh, you know, if he wants to go to Tashi Station.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:23

You can power converters. You can waste time with your friends later. No, what's the the robot chicken episode where he finally goes to Tashi Station and you find out it's a strip club? Power converters are the name of the strippers. Uh I think uh the Vader scene, Mike, you're the trench run.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:45

Yeah, I think the trench run.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:48

Evan, you're the blue milk scene.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:53

I'd say I probably enjoyed the um I think I liked the battle on Hoth better than I liked uh the uh trench run.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:02

Because it was you the most iconic scene from Empire.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because those were they were badass. The 8080s were just you know. And they had the little grapple gun that got him up there and yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:18

Yeah. My iconic scene from Empire is uh on Dagobah where he's facing in Vader and he cuts off the head and it's his face in Vader mask.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:33

And in the eye, I see another face.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:38

It's a Rhino.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:43

It's like such it's a weird scene to me because it's like knowing now that he's Vader's son, it makes sense. You might be Vader too, but like when you see the movie for the first time, you have to be like, Why is his face in there? You know, only knows that it's a dark place, you know. Like I think an underrated scene in Empire is when Han comes back from being tortured, and Leia asks, Why are they doing this? And he says, They never even ask me any questions. Every time Lando goes, This deal's getting worse every time.

SPEAKER_10 1:11:19

Yeah. Pray it'll alter it any further. That's like um, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:26

I didn't really frame this question right, I think, because I I said what scene's more iconic, and then I said which scene's the most iconic from each film, but which of the two movies has which of the two movies do you think has more iconic scenes?

SPEAKER_09 1:11:39

A new hope.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:40

New hope.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:42

You got them staring off into the two sunsets, you know. You have the uh the uh cardboard cutout award ceremony at the end of the new hope. You have uh the trash compactor scene, obviously. Um you got the duel between Vader and and Obi-Wan.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:03

Well, you also got Obi-Wan taking off the guy's arm in the bar. I want the control systems.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:13

You get the crispy Uncle Owen and Aunt Peru.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:17

And you get you got Luke like kind of just like brushing it off his shoulder, like a scene later, like, okay, they're dead, but I'm gonna I'm gonna leave the planet now. There's no like emotional breakdown from any character in that film because like Alderon gets destroyed in front of Leia and barely registers on the radar for her.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:40

Well, when you know you're adopted, most kids are they weren't my real parents anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:47

Well, they've been under the thumb of the umpire for so long, they're just numb to that kind of shit now.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:55

Here's some theoretical questions for you. I'm gonna start first with some casting what-ifs. Uh Luke Skywalker, which ultimately ended up being played by Mark Hamill, had a few different actors who uh who actually auditioned for the role, among them Robert Englund, who would later go on to play Freddie Krueger.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:15

Can you imagine Robert Englin? Luke Skywalker.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:20

Oh, yeah, I couldn't picture that at all. Is that me?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:22

Will that mean Mark Hamill ended up as Freddie Krueger? Um Princess Leia uh was Jody Foster, Amy Irving, Kate Nelligan, all were considered for the role, but did not audition. Um I can't think of the actress's name. The one that played Shirley and Laverne and Shirley.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:41

Oh uh, Cindy Williams.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:43

Cindy Williams actually auditioned for the role. You can see her audition tape on YouTube. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:48

She works, she was in um she was in uh Lucas's uh first. She was in American Graffiti. American, yeah, American Graffiti.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:57

Uh and then for the role of Han Solo, Burt Reynolds, Al Pacino, Jack Nicholson, and Chevy Chase were all considered for the role.

SPEAKER_10 1:14:11

It would have been like Clark Griswold as Han Solo.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:14

It just would have been like sarcastic and like I want to see Jack Nicholson as Han Solo. Al Pacino, I got a big ship. As he goes in the hyperspace. Uh that's Mike's favorite scene from Heat. Hold on.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:32

She got a great ass. And you got your head all the way up it.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:40

So those were characters that were considered for the role of Hans Sole, auditioning for the role. Kurt Russell, Christopher Walken, and the one who ultimately got it, Harrison Ford. Kurt Russell would be good, I think. Walking? You never heard of the Millennium Falcon made the kettle run. I would be damned. May the Fawz be with you. Wow. Never tell me the odds. Uh I would have thought I thought Kurt Russell would have been a good one, too.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:29

Yeah, I think Kurt Russell would have been good.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:31

So I was telling Mike there's a fan film I saw on TikTok the other day. It was an AI-produced fan film. It was a Star Wars story that took place between uh Empire and Jedi, where they were looking for Han Solo's uh carbon-freeze the body, and there's a scene where Luke is rescued by one of Han's old friends, who is a scoundrel character played by a Kurt Russell AI figure, and he drives a Millennium Falcon type ship that's just really, really cool looking and well like preserved and like in good condition and everything. It was a cool fan film.

SPEAKER_10 1:16:04

Um Russell and IPatch, though, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:07

Yeah. Did Vader know Luke was his son during a new hope, or do you think he didn't find out till the emperor told him?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:13

I think it was later after they found out what Luke's name was. Skywalker.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:19

Yeah. The son of Skywalker.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:22

Yeah.

unknown 1:16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:23

I mean, here's the thing uh Lucas went and made the prequels, gave the Jedi all these other powers and feelings and senses and everything else. And then you question you when you look at the original trilogy again, it's like, how did he not know? Yeah, how did he not feel it? Especially the familial connection, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:44

I think like this, like, all right, now I'm gonna get nerd on you. Uh, if the emperor was powerful enough to mask his presence as the Sith Lord from the Jedi in the prequel films, he's definitely powerful enough to mask the existence of Luca Leia from Darth Vader.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:04

Well, do you think the Emperor knew that uh Luke and Leia had survived and that they were around?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:09

I think he probably had an had an inkling of it. Maybe. Plus, Vader was just easily duped and emotional and all that, anyways.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:22

And as as you know, uh Obi-Wan says he's more machine now than he is man.

SPEAKER_10 1:17:31

Well, that's this is where I think it's kind of similar to uh Lord of the Rings, where if you think you know, like Sauron lost you know the one ring, he doesn't know exactly where it is, but he knows it's out there. I think that's kind of similar. I think the Emperor probably knew that that Vader's kids were out there somewhere, but he didn't know exactly where. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:48

I mean, like we we kind of answered the new the next question already. Is New Hope a complete story? And I think, like Mike said, if they didn't get green lit for the sequel, Star Wars New Hope kind of ends on a note that makes you think like this is the ending. They they did leave it open though with the fact that Vader survives. You know, his ship gets blown away, but he doesn't, you know, get yeah. Which film has the better Han Solo arc? The Rogue with a Heart in New Hope or The Frozen Legend in Empire Strikes Back? Oh, Empire by far.

SPEAKER_10 1:18:23

Yeah, I would say Empire.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:24

Notably, Harrison Ford wanted Han Solo to die at the end because he didn't want to do Return of the Jedi. Oh really? Yeah. He said all Jedi had was just a teddy bear picnic at the end. Um, of course, you get the really iconic scene in Empire, the uh the uh scene with him and Leia before he gets frozen. Oh yeah, that's great. I love you. Fuck off. So, of course, the only reason I put that question in there is so I could play that. Um so let's uh let's do an ultimate vote here. Uh not what's your favorite, what do you think is the better of the two films? Uh New Hope or Empire. You can tell me your favorite afterward if you want, but like I think I gotta go with Empire. I go with Empire as well. I think, I mean, it is my favorite of all the films, but um I think it's a better overall story, more character development. It's it's a darker tone. It obviously has a little bit more to it than the first film did because the budget was a little higher and all that. That being said, New Hope is easily in second place for me among all the films because again, you wouldn't have anything else without New Hope. So, Matt, where were you gonna what would you say?

SPEAKER_10 1:20:00

Well, I I would I would say Empire because um I think Empire a lot more like twists and turns in the story, and um and I liked like it I like the actual part, you know, where like they kind of go on different paths.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:15

I like kind of like that, you know, like Han and Leia go on one path and Luke goes in the other, and they all kind of like meet up at the end, but like I don't know it also it also furthers the character bonds because Luke is so adamant about getting back to his friends and saving them and not doing what Yoda says and just kind of letting them follow their own path and all that. It's part of that arc in the in the sequel films that Mike uh says is missing. We're just no like emotional stakes like that. So I think overall, I think we would uh all agree that Empire is the better of the two films, uh the stronger film, although we do still love A New Hope. Let's do a quick uh ranking here, like off the top of your head. How would you rank the Star Wars films? You can do all 11 films if you want, or you can just do the nine films from the three different sets of trilogies um if you had to rank them. For me, number one's Empire, number two is New Hope. Uh, number three is Revenge of Sith, because I just really love the lightsaber battle at the end and the whole you were the chosen one scene. Jedi would be Force for May. Uh 5th would be uh uh Force Awakens, sixth would be uh Phantom Menace, seven would probably be uh Last Jedi. Uh eight would be Attack of the Clones, because I just think other than Yoda's fight scene at the end, it's boring as fuck. And the worst one, of course, is Rise of Skywalker. Now, if I were to include Solo and Rogue One, like Solo would be in the bottom ten somewhere, but not all the way at the bottom, and Rogue One would probably be like towards the top five. Anyone have like a different order they want to give?

SPEAKER_09 1:22:09

Or um no, I like yours, so I'm gonna go with yours.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:14

I might have put uh the clones above the last of the clones above last Jedi above uh the the well, I mean you I think Rise of Skywalker is gonna be last place for everybody, right?

SPEAKER_10 1:22:35

Yeah, I mean I I mean, like I don't know, like either Rise of Skywalker or um Last Jedi. Like, I don't know, like both of them are pretty bad. Like, I don't I don't really like either one of them.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:45

I like Last Jedi for the fact that it tried to do something different.

SPEAKER_10 1:22:50

They kind of derailed Force Awakens, that's the problem.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:53

Like it I don't think it did. I think what derailed everything was them bringing J was panicking and bringing JJ Abrams back for the last film and then having him kind of wreck on everything. Like let Ryan Johnson finish his story, and maybe it would have made more sense.

SPEAKER_10 1:23:08

Wasn't there originally like uh supposed to be another director for the for episode nine, though, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:13

It wasn't supposed to be um it was uh Kevin Trev uh Trevorrow who did the Jurassic World films, right?

SPEAKER_10 1:23:19

Yeah, they fired.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:21

I'm sure that would have increased the quality as well.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:26

Michael Bay.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:29

They try to have a dynamic between the characters that were that was never established in the first movie, and then they go and oh, let's just send you know fin off to the gambling planet.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:45

I will say that that was a useless storyline in that movie. Movie would have been an hour shorter without the fucking casino planet.

SPEAKER_10 1:23:51

So one that I'm always conflicted about is is Phantom Menace because like overall it's that's not a very good movie, but like all the stuff Darth Maul is so good. That's like uh like I think actually the Darth Maul fight is probably the best lightsaber fight in the entire franchise, I think.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:09

Matt and I would uh regularly leave uh like PD sessions that we had to go to for school and go get lunch at the Hooters down the road, and we would drink and talk about how we would have rewritten the Phantom Menace. And we always felt that we had a better plot every time we did it.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:30

So I think overall, though, uh Empire got rid of Jar Jar and uh Chlory and I think the rest of the movie would have been fine.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:39

Our our ultimate takeaway, Matt and I, was that Maul survives it, yeah, and eventually it becomes a battle between Anakin and Darth Maul for who is going to be the apprentice of the Emperor.

SPEAKER_10 1:24:52

He should have been the new Darth Vader, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:55

He should have been in all the movies.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:56

Yeah, you were half right, he did survive it.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:59

Yeah, well literally and figuratively, he didn't. Mike, any uh beer trivia for us this evening?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:09

I guess a beer history for you here. Uh, beer advertising evolved significantly from informal word of mouth in the 19th century to major force in the modern marketing. Early breweries relied on local communities to spread awareness, but growing competition led to the use of printed posters and pamphlets. Innovations in lithography made advertisement more visible, appealing, and helped brands stand out. By the 19th and 20th century, breweries began developing strong brand identities through memorable slogans, campaigns like those of Bud Wager's the King of Beers and Miller Lights Taste Great, Less Filling, created lasting emotional connections with its customer consumers. The rise of television transformed beer advertisement advertising even further, introducing humor, storytelling, and celebrity endorsements. Iconic campaigns such as Bud Wajers Clydesdales and Miller Light's comedic act comedic ads became part of popular culture over time. Promoting beer as part of a relaxed lifestyle. This shift helps normalize beer consumption in everyday social settings like barbecues and sporting events.

SPEAKER_09 1:26:38

Nobody ever thinks of the uh the penguins. Doobie doobie doob or bud Mackenzie.

SPEAKER_10 1:26:47

Bud bowls. Well, or what about the Bud Bowl? Why'd they kill the Bud Bowl?

SPEAKER_06 1:26:52

It's great. Uh, Mike, I didn't have any movie uh updates tonight, but I do have something to add to your segment because I have some wine history for you. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, here you go. Ready?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:02

Wine was invented by the Romans for orgies. And orgies are not too much fun if no one wants to do with you.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:18

I saw that the other day and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna get it to work in here, but I'm gonna fucking force that bit in here somewhere. We have a cinema quote of the week.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:29

I became an actor, so I didn't have to be myself. Mark Ruffalo.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:34

Isn't that about most people become actors? You don't have to be yourself. Uh how are you?

SPEAKER_09 1:27:41

That's why most people have social media accounts.

unknown 1:27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:45

I'm not myself on social media. I'm running away from mythological creatures. That's right. Uh, how are your drinks this evening?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:55

I was just sipping whiskey, so I'm still sipping it.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:57

I was gonna say 125 proof. I hope you're sipping it.

SPEAKER_09 1:28:01

I wish I had brought up the um tonic and the lime so I could make myself another, but I mean it was good.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:09

Had the gin. Uh Matt, how are you drinking?

SPEAKER_10 1:28:12

Yeah, the two yeah, the two robbers is good. It's a uh it's a pretty good I never had this before. It's like a it's a pretty good vodka. It's pretty uh pretty smooth. Yeah, yeah, it can't it comes in a tank. They have different flavors.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:25

I had the grapefruit one, but I have officially killed my uh beer bread uh crowler, beer bread bread blondie, whatever the fuck it was called. Banana bread blondie. Banana bread blondie from Langhorn Brewery. I killed it in my red solo cup. Uh it was really good. I have to go back and get some more or get whatever their seasonal is, man, because I really like that place. All right. Thank you for joining us tonight for episode 236, Sequel Wars, New Hope versus Empire, where we ultimately said the Empire won. We hope you enjoyed listening to the podcast as much as we enjoyed recording it for you. Don't forget you can drop us an email at films and fermentation at gmail.com or visit linktree.com slash films and fermentation. Find all of our social media podcast links. You can watch us on YouTube, Rumble, and on the Pod Nation Media Network on Roku. You can uh follow us at patreon.com slash films and fermentation for exclusive content or text us at 904-867-4466. If you would like to comment on the episode, give us drink suggestions, uh, whatever you know you might have on your mind, feel free to contact us and we will give you a shout-out on the show. Don't forget to make sure you tell me who you are if you're gonna text me. Uh it's it's anonymous. Don't forget to stop by the crossroads between Pickled and Ferment it next time around for episode 237. Next week, we're gonna be looking at Pixar at 40. It's the 40th anniversary of Pixar. Hard to believe. In the meantime, oh, you know what, Matt, is there anything you need to plug? Any movies you're working on right now or anything you're doing?

SPEAKER_10 1:29:55

Um, unfortunately, I'm kind of on the hiatus with movies right now. Yeah, that's like uh so there's nothing really uh nothing, nothing new, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:05

That's okay. If you would like to check out more of uh Matt's work, you can uh look for his films that are uh available on DVD, uh Always from Darkness, False Face, Shadow Brook, or check out our little short film Doppelganger on YouTube. You can look up either my name or Matt's name or whatever and see if you can find it. It's hidden on there somewhere.

SPEAKER_10 1:30:25

I think Disney owns the rights to it.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:26

So yeah, Disney owns the rights to doppelganger now. They're gonna create an IP out of it and oversaturate the market with people that look like each other. In the meantime, I'm Leo. I'm Kevin, I'm Mike, and I'm Matt. Matt, and I want to thank Matt for joining us tonight. And hopefully, you come back again, join us again. It it was fun. Yeah, yep. Uh, this has been the films and fermentation podcast. Everybody, cheers. Cheers, cheers.